The reading summary is done by: Shawntell Sawyer (ENGL300-1) and Joshua Haley (300-2) Due by class time on: Wednesday, Feb. 2nd, 2011 The responses by the whole class are due by class time on: Friday, Feb. 4th, 2011 The text you need to read is here.
The article "Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeast Asian Languages" by Mark J. Alves focus on a number of problematic claims about the syntax (the order and relationships of words in sentences) of several Southeast Asian languages. In typical Western analyses of Southeast Asian languages, there are some problem areas such as: 1) inadequate linguistic theories that continue to analyze these languages incorrectly despite the reality of Southeast Asian languages and other languages of the world. 2) cultural misunderstandings based on pre-conceived Western notions of language and society. 3) difficulties in teaching Southeast Asian languages, and 4) difficulties or inaccuracies in translation.
Alves said many linguistic aspects shared by Southeast Asian languages have not been included in Western theories even though the progress in grammatical descriptions of Southeast Asian languages since the mid-nineteenth century. He has analyses the problems of "pronouns," "classifiers," and "prepositions" in Southeast Asian languages in this article.
Pronouns
He defined the functions and distributions of "pronouns" in Southeast Asian languages are quite different from those in European languages. The concept of a pronoun in western terms is that of a word which substitutes for another noun to avoid repetition with example: Samantha is a witch, but she is also a housewife. Moreover, European pronouns and their functions are generally transparent. Thus, we can tell from the form of the pronoun (e.g., "I", "me", "my") who did what to whom and to whom something belongs, as in example: he gave his book to him. On the other hand, pronouns cannot appear with modifying elements such as definite articles (e.g., "*the he"), plural markings (e.g., "*mes" to mean more than one "me"), or adjectives (e.g., "*big her") except in certain pragmatic contexts (e.g., "Which 'he' are you talking about?").
There are some significant differences between pronouns by the Western definition and Southeast Asian "pronouns." These include the following: 1) Southeast Asian "pronouns" are often derived etymologically from other nouns, especially from family terms. 2) Southeast Asian "pronouns" can be used with determiners. 3) The same "pronouns" in some Southeast Asian languages can be used for Western definitions of first, second, or third person. 4) Whether addressing or referring to the speaker, the listener, or a third party, personal names can be used.
Classifiers
Alves defined Classifiers, which function to note units in quantified noun phrases (combinations of nouns and numerals), are used throughout Southeast Asia. However, there is no category "classifier" in the European tradition which has the same syntactic and semantic functions as those in Southeast Asian languages. Classifiers appear in differing positions, either before (Mandarin and Chinese) or after (Khmer and Malay) a common noun.
Some linguists even consider the classifier to be a distinct part of speech which does not belong to any Western category. Unfortunately, part of the implicit criteria in this view is that, if something cannot be translated as a certain word class in a Western language, it cannot be classified within the Western framework. Thus, Western constraints are still being indirectly applied.
Alves pointed out a number of problems that translation criteria do not necessarily determine to what part of speech a class of words belongs, nor does translation necessarily disprove that class of words is something which does exist in other languages. Furthermore, Southeast Asian languages and other languages with classifiers do not have some unique part of speech. They simply have a special subclass of words derived from common words that already exist in those languages. In addition, the consequences of this approach can be seen in the areas of pedagogy, cultural understanding, and cross-linguistic comparisons and typology.
Prepositions
"Prepositions are words which show a relationship between a noun or pronoun and some other word." Various Southeast Asian linguists have done work to show that "prepositions" are rather different than what the traditional concepts suggest. They demonstrated what typically translates as prepositions in these languages are actually nouns that indicate the position of the attached nouns. However, translations can be misleading.
Alves brought out an interesting aspect of Southeast Asian languages is the way in which verbs and prepositions appear ambiguous. Sometimes, verbs seem to be prepositions in what are called serial verb constructions (sequences of verbs). However, prepositions seem to function as verbs in some languages.
To conclude, there are still many gaps in our knowledge about language, and that these gaps have caused us to take the easy route: We use what we have the best we can. However, this does not mean we are right. We are in the middle of a constantly developing analysis. The ultimate goal for linguists who research languages in Southeast Asia should be to determine for themselves what the structures are in their languages.
By: Wai Leng Fong
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This article is focused on the European interpretation of the Southeast Asian languages. The problem with that is, we treat all languages as if they have the same format. The proper word to describe this format is syntax. Before there is any true understanding or tranlation, the Southeast Asian syntax must be studied and understood. A few areas that seem to always pose a sytax translation problem are pronouns, classifiers, and prepostitions. In the Western languages we use pronouns to avoid repitition of certain words, ex. First I might use "Josh" in a sentence, then use "he" in that same sentence to avoid repetition. Pronouns should not have plural markings or adjectives connected with the word like "yous" or "tall he". The Southeast Asian "pronouns" are used more as "terms of address". They use the same word for first, second, and third person in their language. In addition to that, their third person singular forn does not have gender classification. The next category that poses a threat in translation is "classifiers", this is some thing that is not really used in Western languages. The most similar terms to compare it to, is the word "head", in "five head of cattle". Some people even that this is not a true part of Westtern speech, so it's even more difficult to try to understand. Finally we reach "prepositions", which shows the relationship between nouns/pronouns and another word such as, "on", and "outside". When these are translated they seem to turn into verbs. In conclusion, I think there needs to be less of a focus on syntax when we are trying to translate other languages because the tranlation will not be accurate.
ReplyDeleteMark J. Alves article,” Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeast Asian Languages” argues that, “Western linguistic frameworks are ill-equipped to analyze many aspects of syntax in Southeast Asian languages due to pre-established European notions of grammar in human language.” This is the central theme of his analyses. He writes that linguists in the field of Southeast Asian linguistics have a duty to figure out a way of analyzing the syntax of the Southeastern Asian language. He attributes these problems to four factors. The first factor is the, “inadequate linguistic theories” that analyze the Southeastern Asian language incorrectly. Second, he argues that there is a misunderstanding of the culture and this is a result of, “pre-conceived Western notions of language and society.” Third, Alves writes there are, “difficulties in teaching Southeast Asian language.” Last, Alves argues that there are inaccurate translations which also make it difficult to learn. All of these factors explain why the learning, teaching and analyzing Southeastern Asian language is so difficult. Next, Alves talks about the different syntax structuring between languages and why it is so difficult to learn a new language. To conclude his article he explains that we English speakers are “blessed” because all of the scholarly work done by linguists to study or language.
ReplyDeleteBoth of the summaries are accurate however, I wish the two would’ve been combined and then it would have made more sense as a whole. I thought “Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeastern Asian Languages”, by Mark J. Alves was a little hard to understand. I do not speak nor have I been educated in European or southeastern Asian languages so this is definitely unfamiliar. What I took from Alves, was that he is trying to come up with a more efficient way to bridge the gap between translation and communication on the topic of understanding the syntax of southeastern Asian language. I did understand the subjects of pronouns and classifiers; however, by the time I reached prepositions my mind was overwhelmed with information that wasn’t exactly adding up. By this I mean I understood the point that Alves was making but I couldn’t picture or hear anything in my mind that would be relatable. I think because English is my only language, it is hard for me to think in terms of another language. If there is no comparison or “like” word and/or concept in the English language then I have no frame of reference. I feel that when learning a foreign language the only way to fully understand is through practice with a native speaker who can relate or try to indirectly translate to something I do know and understand. However,the writer’s intentions are correct. We cannot label something that has no direct correlation to the English language and call it something it is not or vice versa. It is because of these discrepancies that we lack understanding between the cultures.
ReplyDeleteWith computer translators becoming more popular the problem of syntax becomes greater. Google has released a program that translates spoken word in real time so that people without a common language can communicate. What's interesting is that their program does not actually translate individual words but, instead, looks at whole phrases. This may help make translations more accurate by ignoring small things, such as syntax, by looking at the bigger picture.
ReplyDeletethis article talks about the issues that take place in Asian languages. Alves also discusses a lot about the systematization that occurs within syntax. Just like the other readings before this article deals a lot with the grammar and on going problems and difference of opinions in language with translators. This can tie a lot into the English language the misinterpretations that occur
ReplyDeleteThe summaries written by Joshua Haley and Shawn Good could have both been a lot better if they would have read their summaries over before posting them. There were too many misspelled words and fragmented sentences. Haley's summary did not even mention the name of the article he summarized or the authors name. Also, Haley's concluding sentence states, "In conclusion, I think there needs to be less of a focus on syntax when we are trying to translate other languages because the tranlation will not be accurate." However, the articles is saying that there needs to be more analysis of syntax so that we can understand the structure of Southeast Asian Languages and not try to cross translate. As far as Shawn Good's last sentence is concerned, it is fragmented. Aside from the incompleteness of this sentence, the article isn't meant to state how lucky english speaking people are, but how uneducated people are on the different patterns of Southeast Asian languages.
ReplyDeleteThe summary written by Joshua Haley was very detailed, with this being said I was able to grasp his summary and know what the article was being focused upon. Well done by Joshua Haley. Meanwhile, Mark J. Alves article,” Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeast Asian Languages” was talking aboutthe issues that take place in Asian languages. Mark J. Alves also discusses a lot about the systematization that occurs within syntax.In conclusion this correlates to the other readings before this article that deals a lot with grammar problems we face everyday and on going problems and differences of opinions in language with translators. This can relate to a lot into the English misinterpretations that occur on a daily basis.
ReplyDeleteI found Alves' article very interesting, because I have been to Vietnam and studied the Vietnamese language. I agree that the "pronouns" in Vietnamese are many and the differences sometimes slight, and they can often be confusing because they are so similar to other words. I actually liked the syntax of Vietnamese, and thought that the pronunciation of the different tones was more difficult to keep straight than the grammatical structure. One word can mean several different things depending on the tone you use to pronounce the vowels! I definitely understand where Alves is coming from in regard to the way language is theorized based on a Western viewpoint and disregards "underprivileged" languages that follow a very different format. Anything I learned from Western language classes did not help me at all with learning Vietnamese.
ReplyDeleteMark J. Alves article,” Problems in the European Linguistic Analysis of Southeast Asian Languages” states that many aspects of "syntax" in Southeast Asian languages are due to pre-established European notions of grammar in human language although Alves argues that there are inaccurate translations which also make it difficult to learn in these countries. Alves is trying to build somewhat of a bridge between the gaps of these misunderstood communications on the topic of understanding the syntax of southeastern Asian language. The syntax in Vietnamese is actually in my opinion thought that the pronunciation of the different tones was more difficult to keep straight than the grammatical structure. Lastly, Alves argues that there are inaccurate translations which also make it difficult to learn with these specific countries because of how they were taught grammar and English.
ReplyDeleteI believe the summaries were both accurate and written well. I definitely agreed with Joshua when he said in Western languages we use pronouns to avoid repetition of certain words. I know I catch myself doing that all the time when I write papers. I also agree with the fact pronouns shouldn’t have plural markings or adjectives. It is interesting that the pronouns used in Southeast Asia are more a way to address people. I feel the way the summary was written proved there was an understanding between the author of the article and author of the summary.
ReplyDeleteThis article was interesting, Joshua and Shawn did a good job summarizing this article, however I believe that they should have proof read them both before submitting them because there were many grammar and punctuation mistakes. I have always thought how interesting it is that every language has different grammar and punctuation rules. I am currently getting my minor in Spanish and the hardest part for me is getting the grammar correct. However I believe that knowing the Spanish language has also helped me with grammar in the English language. It is interesting that many say the English language is the hardest out of them all, but coming from the English language, its equally as hard to learn a different language.
ReplyDeleteThis article, for the most part had me think but I do disagree with what others are saying. The English language is by far, one of the top hardest languages to learn, so I've been told. Even we, as Americans have yet to fully master this language because within our countries there are so many factors to change the syntax. If we compare the Southern part of the United States to the North, there is a major change in how we speak, is it not? Of course there is going to be a different variation from how we speak in English to people of Asia. It is interesting to try to understand how English is spoken different between the different walks of life but we can't say that how others say something is wrong.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed reading this article! I think I can understand how people coming from other countries struggle (since my family did). Translations can never be a hundred percent accurate and therefore learning English can be confusing. English is hard even for Americans. Both of these summaries were good, besides the errors. I personally liked Joshua's summary because was very detailed and you could grasp the key points. Without reading the article you feel as though you already have. While Shawn's was broader and was exactly what a summary should be. He didn't give the entire article away and but kept you interested and curious.
ReplyDeleteThe problem here is when people are so conditioned to thinking in their native language when trying to learn another. When we try to make that direct translation from (in our situation) English to another language we also have to learn the "syntax" of the other language. In the case of Mark J. Alves's article, he specifically targeted Southeast Asian Languages and Western languages. Alves examined the way people of Western speaking use pronouns and to the syntax of the different Southeast Asian Languages. Alves doesn't focus on many other aspects really. I always thought Southeast Asian languages would be difficult to learn because much of the emphasis on certain words would actually change the meaning (so I've heard) . It is just a different way of thinking. When I was learning French in it made it much easier when I actually started thinking in French, as opposed to trying to directly translate my English words and phrases. However Southeast Asian languages would be much more of a challenge to learn do to the many grammatical(as Alves pointed out) and social differences.
ReplyDeleteThis article was very informative on the different translations between people of other countries and western civilization. It however was so wordy that is made the reading very dull and hard to want to even read the article. The key points were summarized well in the student’s summaries. They paid close attention to the detail. In my friend's opinion people coming from other countries should be able to grasp grammar better then we can because they have already learned theirs in a different way so now applying new rules to understand ours where we are just learning it from scratch so it makes it a bit more difficult to grasp right off the bat.
ReplyDeleteBoth summaries are very accurate and well written. I really don't know much about translations and the way people of other countries translate. Only language I attempted to learn was Spanish and in my opinion it was pretty easy but when it comes down to saying a entire sentence, thats when things got a bit complicated for me. Both summaries read the article thoroughly and paid attention to details and examples. I think by reading this article, I might want to learn a different language just so I can experience it myself and it is always good to learn a second language since our world is so diverse as it is.
ReplyDeleteI thought this article was a little drawn out for the point that was being made. Mark J. Alves was ultimately arguing that Southeast Asian languages do not get translated to Western language correctly, because the syntax is not used the same way in both languages. I agree that in order to translate Southeast Asian language the translator needs to understand the syntax it was originally wrote/used in, and not change the meaning to fit the Western way of language. I have no experience with translating other languages, or other languages in general, so this topic is unfamiliar to me. When I read translated material I trust that the translator has kept the original meaning, and only changed the words that communicate it. Also, I noticed that both students wrote their summaries as comments, and that made it unclear to see which students had to summarize this article. I was able to understand the article better by reading the two summaries together. Altogether, I thought that this article was drawn out and made a big deal about something that does not seem to be greatly disabling communication.
ReplyDeleteI am a Contonese native speaker and Contonese is defined as one of the Southeast Asian Languages. Thus, I am quite interesting in this article "Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeast Asian Languages" by Mark J. Alves. When I was reading, I am quite agree with Alves's point. Actually, the problem which are pointed out are the common problem when I am doing the translation between Contonese and English. For example, "我" can represent either the subject form or object form of "I" in English. If I am doing the translation of Chinese to English. I need to consider whenever I should use "I" or "me" in English sentences. The preposition is really a problem in translating Chinese to English. I think preposition in English is in detailed very much whereas preposition in Contonese can be used in many cases. On the contrary, Classifiers words in Chinese are more in detail than in English. However, it is not bad that Chinese and English are using the smiliar sentence structure whereas Chinese and some Eourpean languages are totally different from each other.
ReplyDeleteI knew that in other languages the way one speaks is much different but, not that you would use the same words in first, second, and third. I guess that would be why whenever I see something in Japanese they repeat the name so often, followed by an honorific. This was interesting for me in that I had no idea it went this in depth.
ReplyDeleteIn differenr cultures there people use different grammar. Cultures around the world have their own unique way of speaking. Reading the article "Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeast Asian Languages" by Mark J. Alves, I came to the realization that it is not always easy to translate. People say that English is the hardest language to learn because of the broad use of grammar we use. I'm not sure how true this statement may be but I have experienced trying to learn Spanish and it was not as difficult as I thought it would be. I found the summaries that I read very detailed and to the point. By reading this article I think people can get a lot from it.
ReplyDeleteIn different cultures people use different syntax to emphasis their words as well. I think a lot if times the way Americans speak seems so far behind every other country because other languages aren't as complex as ours. So certain styles of speech look weird to us because we're use to seeing our dialect and not others.
ReplyDeleteMark J. Alves's "Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeast Asian Languages," goes in depth about how pronouns derived in different ways within Western and Southeast Asian countries. The confusion starts with the etymology and how the languages have evolved in separate fashions. Southeast Asian pronouns are less personal in an emotional way, but more personal in a way which describes the person without relating them to gender. The linguists make it clear that the syntax in every language is different because of the language history. Also, I found it interesting on how they studied languages and the types of universal advantages that may arise from them.
ReplyDeleteThe article "Problems in the European Linguistic Analysis of Southeast Asian Languages" by Mark J. Alves talks about the differences between English language use of pronouns and prepositions compared to the Asian languages. To begin with the way pronouns are used are different in the 2 languages. In Asian languages they are used as "terms of agreement" and they use the same word for first second and third person. Because of these differences in the syntax of the languages it makes it difficult when trying to translate the languages directly.
ReplyDeleteI apologize for the late comment, however, my internet has been down at my house since Friday morning. Regarding the summaries and article, I thought that both students did a great job with the summaries. Furthermore, I agree with Kendra that although I understood the article, by the time I reached the part about prepositions I was beginning to feel a little bit overwhelmed with information. Overall I agree with the article but I disliked reading it because it seemed to be drawn out.
ReplyDeleteThe article "Problems in the European Linguistic Analyses of Southeast Asian Languages," by Mark J. Alves discusses the differences between the English and Asian uses of prepositions and pronouns. The Asian language uses the same word for first, second, and third person in their language as opposed to the English language which does not. I can see how translating the Asian language into English would be difficult and vice versa due to the differences in our rules of grammar.
ReplyDeleteThe article was absolutely amazing. I thoroughly enjoyed Alves research in the topic at hand--syntax. Syntax, or sentence structure, is not difficult, it is something that people learn from a young age--how to speak, or formulate sentence. However, not all languages have the same syntax, thus making translation from certain languages, for example, English to Chinese, or vice versa, a problem. I enjoyed this article a lot because brought to light that all languages have a different origin, and different way of structure.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, I felt both students summarized the article very well. Both included specific examples to provide further clarification of the text. As for the article, it was a little difficult and dry to follow along; not as interesting as some of the articles we have read previously. However it was very detailed when it came to incorporating examples to support their claim. I also found it interesting how the author attempted to formulate a solution to connect the bridges between the English language and Southeast Asian language. Although before reading this article I was completely uninformed in Southeast Asian syntax and the article was a great introduction to the material.
ReplyDeleteI think both students did a good job on the summary article. I feel as if they summarized it to the best of their ablities. The article was kind of differcult for me to read. The summaries had an better impact on me than the article itself. I had a very differcult time trying to understand it.Once I had a lock on the article, along with the summaries it began to become very clear to me.
ReplyDeleteAlves discuss issues about the systematization that occurs within syntax. Just like the other readings before this article deals a lot with the grammar and on- going problems and difference of opinions in language with translators. This article also talks about the issues that take place in Asian languages. These problems can tie a lot into the English language and misinterpretations that occur.
ReplyDeleteEnglish should be used in America and then if you go to another country then you should have a general knowledge of how that countries language is put together. With lack of understanding in communication, people should have a general knowledge so problems do not occur. Lack of general knowledge of sentence structure may cause issues with ESL learners. This also may make sharpening a bit harder to follow in the sentence structure do to you may be a proper form for an Asian learner as it is used as a pronoun for us.
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